The thing is, not all movies need a definite villain to make it a good one. There were plenty of ‘baddies’ in HtTYD, and one real monster at the end, but no set ‘villain’, and that was perfectly fine with me.
I’m not saying I don’t think TS3 was good, because it really was a step above the first two without running them over, and wasn’t a flop, either (which a lot of three-quels tend to be).
And on the whole overly-emotional aspect: again, seconding what TDIT said. There was just way too much tension from the beginning of the film all the way up to the end, so the emotion is almost taxing on you and you’re sapped by the end. Sure there’s a bit of comic relief, but not enough to help relieve all of that tension.
I guess I just expected TS3 to be a bit more well-rounded, and it wasn’t. I expected it to be a lot of things it wasn’t. HtTYD was honestly the first time I walked into the theater doubting and came out amazed. That’s really all I can say.
Well I personally thought the light heartedness, sentimentally and underlying dark tones were balanced perfectly for the tone film that it was, Toy Story 3’s premise alone was depressing (the toys finding the one they’ve loved for so many year has grown out of them, he still cares for them out of nostalgia but he has grown out of them) I would have been disappointed if Toy Story 3 were more light hearted, it would have contrasted the emotional impact of what these characters were going through, and the Spanish Buzz alone lightened up the tone immensely when it needed to be, and to me didn’t feel intrusive like say, the Gargoyles in The Hunchback of Notre Dame. (I loved that film but I hated those Gargoyles)
And I know films don’t need a definitive antagonist to be good, I was just saying one of the many things that worked better for me personally in Toy Story 3 than How to Train your Dragon, not to be snide, not even in the slightest, I’m just saying is all.
As I’ve said in other threads, we all have differing tastes at the end of the day.
Good point on the physical limitations of toys, Leon. Like I said, that impedes the scale of the movie somewhat, but that doesn’t make it any less intense. The smaller set gives it a more Hitchcock-ian feel with traces of ‘The Great Escape’.
I didn’t like [spoil]Lotso[/spoil]'s backstory, probably because it felt poorly motivated. While other villains such as Hopper and Waternoose are driven by material wealth, and Syndrome and Muntz by ego and fantasies, Lotso felt like he was being bad because he wanted to impose his viewpoint on others. Which is the mark of most totalitarian dictators, but somehow his motivations felt weak to me. And while he may be the most ruthless baddie since Hopper, I did feel disappointed that Pixar wrote him into an ‘irredeemable’ act like most of its villains instead of choosing the moral high ground.
little_chef raised a good point that not all movies have to have an ultimate antagonist. Finding Nemo is remarkably devoid of any true baddies, and any misfortunes are the results of circumstance or ‘unintentional villains’ like the Dentist. Darla was the closest thing to a villain, but like the [spoil]Green Death[/spoil], she didn’t know the ‘hidden effects’ of her actions, and served mainly as a climatic plot device.
I also second that TS3 was mentally and emotionally exhausting. That doesn’t mean I hated it (I in fact got my money’s worth ), but it did feel a bit tiresome. HTTYD had better pacing and more comic-relief moments. And TS3 met my expectations before taking a nosedive at the end, while HTTYD met my expectations and made a magnificent exit.
P.S. Oops, looks like you beat me to a post. Thanks for being fair and balanced in your assessment anyway, Leon. You have been a worthy ‘opponent’, but I must retire now as it’s 3 in the morning and I need some rest.
P.P.S. Just like to add this debate was rather interesting, some good points raised both for TS3 and HTTYD I never considered before.
Lotso’s backstory to me was the most heart breaking of the entire series, I couldn’t imagine what it would be like to be left out in the middle of nowhere, walk for miles to get back to the one I loved (not in a romantic sense but still) only to find she had outright replaced me. His motivations weren’t weak at all I don’t think, I can’t even begin to imagine how much that tore him apart, Jessie’s final memory with Emily was a very nostalgic car ride with her, Lotso’s was having his heart ripped out essentially, and I could understand why he had gone down the path he did and genuinely cared for him, even if his actions weren’t justified.
It only added to how much more powerful Toy Story 3 was than How to Train Your Dragon for me, also, as I said above.
I’m sorry, and I’m going to get it for this, but Dragons. I serve Pixar with everything Jesus doesn’t get, but TS3 was very depressing for me. I like every Pixar film, and it was great, just not as a Toy Story.
Toy Story 3 was supposed to be a different film to its predecessors’ though, as the original audience of the first two films matured, so did Toy Story, and I personally commend Pixar for doing it that way, but to each their own.
I’m not trying to argue, it’s just really disappointing for me. Toy Story was my childhood, and I felt like maybe I could grow up a little with the release of Toy Story 3. But, as much as I cried 3 times, it was really depressing. I had hoped for a happy-sad, like Up. But the first ever perfect animation studio was due to fall, I guess…
It wasn’t entirely sad, none of the toys died (though they did all come close) and at the end of it while they have to say goodbye to Andy, they get a new owner who’s clearly going to love them all just as much as Andy has a child, and to an extent still did out of nostalgia. It was bittersweet, just as sad as it was happy I feel.
No, I actually totally agree with you, IV. TS3 just didn’t have it for me, either. As I said before, I seemed to expect so much more from it - and while it was definitely different from the first two in that it was a lot darker (which is good in some ways), it also seemed to detract from the first two a lot. It just didn’t have enough ‘happy’ in it to pick up from the tense and depressing, as you mentioned. At least Up found that balance - I didn’t feel that for TS3.
Plus, I really think HtTYD deserves far more credit than it’s getting. It really was a bad year for its release, because it being released right next to TS3 is crushing it. TS has had two films already to back it up, and has been around for 15 years. Plenty of time for it to be recognized and loved. HtTYD is brand new, and one of the first things DreamWorks ever did right… yet no one seems to totally recognize that.
While I absolutely loved the ending of TS3 (It was perfect), the entire movie felt like an emotional ordeal to me instead of an escapist thrill-ride. It felt like Watership Down, or Grave of the Fireflies, but for toys, and it was quite grueling to see the toys I love being put through such tribulations. Of course, movies are all about tension, and you get a huger emotional payoff at the end, but the entire film, while moving, felt very depressing for me. Going through the “Your TS3 review” thread, this is not an isolated opinion.
Again, pathos is good, but I like my movies to be ‘feel-good’, so that’s just my personal taste. Again, one might argue that the movie ultimately had a [spoil]‘feel-good’ conclusion[/spoil], but no one would argue that this is one of Pixar’s darker films.
EDIT Looks like little_chef beat me to the punch!
I suppose in many ways sequels have to up the ante and raise the stakes, so to speak. This has been a trend in many movie series like Indiana Jones, Harry Potter, Pirates of the Carribean and Spiderman. The constant desire to come up with a tougher challenge for the heroes and make the story ‘darker’, be it circumstantial or in the antagonists, might work, but it can go the other way too (like Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, Spiderman 3, and to a certain extent, At World’s End).
You echoed my sentiments exactly. Although the emotional gravitas in Up was greater (the permanent passing of a loved one, as opposed to moving on from a friend where there is always the chance of a reunion), it had more light-hearted moments, with only periodical reminders of the emotional undercurrent. TS3’s theme felt more pervasive to me, and I never quite felt it ‘take off’ into ‘grand adventure’ territory.
TS3 has a legacy of great predecessors to fall back on, and I always believe in giving new properties the benefit of the doubt. Starting something new (even if it’s an adaptation) means you lack the familiarity that franchises have, which is something to be acknowledged when making a merit assessment. And I believe in giving the ‘new kids on the block’ a chance (although you’re free to criticise all you want once you have given them a chance).
On that note, what bothers me is that some people automatically assume Pixar will be better even though they have not seen the competition. I will not say names, but there was a Chat-O-Rama session where we were discussing soundtracks and someone gushed about TS3’s soundtrack. I asked this person if he had listened to the HTTYD soundtrack or even seen the movie, and he said no, but then counters, “But it’s Pixar!” or something to that effect.
Same thing happened with the Rio/Alpha & Omega/Newt comparisons. Though the plots and the settings are totally different, the theme (reluctant partners being of the last of their species must work together and may fall in love) was enough to get some people claiming the other studios copied Pixar and coming to the conclusion that Pixar will do a better job. Although it may have a better track record, one can’t say for certain Pixar will make the best film for that theme, and we may never know since they have unfortunately scrapped the project.
‘Just because it’s Pixar’ is a poor support. I’m glad that most people here though have seen both movies, and I’m perfectly fine if they then say they preferred one over the other. You can’t form an informed opinion about something unless you’ve experienced it. That would be called speculation.
But Pixar have made incredibly dark films before (The Incredibles, in fact that film was dark enough for popular YouTube film critic Confused Matthew to pretty much slate the entire film in a 3 part review, I don’t AGREE with said review, but you get my point) so why is it such a shock with Toy Story 3? Not to be snide, I’m just saying is all.
I agree whole heartedly, which is why I made a point of seeing How to Train your Dragon before posting in this thread. I just didn’t think it was a very good film, though far superior to most Dreamworks outings (Shrek the Third and Kung Fu Panda were atrocious)
I love them both, but I find TS3 more rivoting and I connected to it emotionally better than HTTYD. Both amazing in their own right, just my opinion, but HTTYD seriously deserves props!
Which is why I said it is one of the darkest films made by the studio, in comparison with lighter fare like Monsters Inc. or Cars (not to say there weren’t emotional or sad moments in those films, but the stakes and atmosphere is considerably less fatalistic/gruelling). Characters in those films weren’t constantly fighting for basic self-preservation, though they may try to save other people or communities.
I know, and I really appreciate your fair assessment of it. I was referring to people who don’t give a movie from ‘a lesser studio’ a chance and then whale on it cos’ it’s not Pixar (like I’ve seen for Alpha & Omega, Rio, Despicable Me, Megamind, etc.).
I have to confess, I have no intent on seeing Alpha and Omega or Despicable Me, but I reaaallly want to see The Legend of the Guardians when it comes to it.
Good on ya for taking an interest in LOTG, but I highly recommend you check out Despicable Me as well. I had to admit I came closer to tears during the climax and ending for D.M. than T.S.3, but maybe it was because I was more emotionally-invested on a personal level with the characters. But even if you don’t feel the same way, it really is one of the better films of the year (both live-action and animation). I’d probably rank it within my Top Five for 2010.
Can’t vouch for Alpha and Omega, but some people liked it here and on Wall-E Forums, so maybe it’s not as bad as we thought it would be. I’m just bummed it’s not getting a theatrical release here, cos’ I would love to see what the other competitor studios are up to.
I agree with some of you guys. I just expected more from TS3. I put all the blame on JL not directing it, though. It’s not Unkrich’s fault he can’t conform to someone else’s directing style.
Yes, The Incredibles was very dark, but it did not have two very happy, lovable predecessors. Although I’m still praying for a sequel…
I’ve decided that I can’t take part in this discussion anymore. First of all, don’t call KFP atrocious. It was definitely one of DW’s better films, and despite the low expectations I had of it, I really honestly enjoyed it, and it got some genuine laughs out of me as a bonus.
Plus, I can’t tear apart a Pixar movie - especially one from a very beloved series - any more than I already have without sounding harsh or “anti-Pixar”, if you want to take it to that extreme.
Basically, a movie hasn’t touched me or moved me as much as HtTYD has since I saw WALL-E. I’m being honest, too.
First of all, don’t call KFP atrocious. It was definitely one of DW’s better films, and despite the low expectations I had of it, I really honestly enjoyed it, and it got some genuine laughs out of me as a bonus.